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recommendations for Wifi SIP phones?

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recommendations for Wifi SIP phones?

Nathan Neulinger
Anyone got any recommendations for decent quality wifi sip phones? Obviously the 'android+soft client' model will work,
but what about actual handsets built for the task.

-- Nathan

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Re: recommendations for Wifi SIP phones?

jay binks
"actual handsets built for the task." 
these are called SIP DECT phones :)

Wifi works OK... but its pretty lossy and not something I like to do 


On 20 September 2013 09:15, Nathan Neulinger <[hidden email]> wrote:
Anyone got any recommendations for decent quality wifi sip phones? Obviously the 'android+soft client' model will work,
but what about actual handsets built for the task.

-- Nathan

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--
Sincerely

Jay

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Re: recommendations for Wifi SIP phones?

Karl Schmidt
In reply to this post by Nathan Neulinger
On 09/19/2013 06:15 PM, Nathan Neulinger wrote:
> Anyone got any recommendations for decent quality wifi sip phones? Obviously the 'android+soft client' model will work,
> but what about actual handsets built for the task.
>

I dug into this issue a bit - sounds like wifi and sip don't exactly like each other.  The problem
people get is stuttering. It is the old bit where it is easy to confuse the difference between speed
and latency. If you look at the through-put - wifi appears like it should work, but there are cases
where packets can be delayed - and if part of an audio stream, either you get excessive latency from
buffering or it misses a time slot and stutters.

Now if you were watching a video - no problem ( it is if you need to mix video inputs) - just delay
the playback via a big buffer - but phone conversations are sort-of realtime.

So this is why there is a market for a substitute and what I've heard is that Siemens- Gigaset (
DECT )  phones are a good substitute for wifi.

This is looking like it would block using a softphone via wifi.  I've wondered if some of the low
data rate codex would make it sort of work?  Once I get the rest of freeswitch working I will be
building a updated linphone ( the stable version in Debian has problems) to test with.  My hunch is
that the low data rate won't fix the problem with maximum delay of packets. (Could be a function of
the wifi access-point - and how many are sharing it).

See myth 16 here
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/wireless/ps9391/ps9393/ps9394/prod_white_paper0900aecd807395a9.html

<warning boring EE digression follows>

A bit more about latency. Landlines use data paths like in T1 bits where every call channel has a
place waiting for the next bit of data - ( 8 bit words where they steal a bit for signaling - thus
56kbits instead of 64kbit.) Every frame of the T1 data has a place reserved for your phone
conversation - no sharing (at least at this level).

Land-line latency was so short no one noticed or even talked about it.  Enter cell phones. Bad nasty
latency - I measured up to 500ms (anything over 50ms bugs me)( plug a mike into a storage
oscilloscope and have the cell phone call your land-line on speaker phone - clap - measure the time
between the clap and the clap coming out of the speakerphone.).

This is bad. In WWII the Nazi's used wire recorders to insert latency and found that if the latency
was bad enough - people would get mad at each other for interrupting. ( I suppose the latency
introduced with cell phones is why everyone started hating each other.)..

Now introduce wifi.  The lovely folks in government did not want it to work. It potentially competed
with services that people paid for and those providers provided bribes^h^h^h^h^h^h investment
opportunities (The type the little guy never sees) to the ruling elite to be sure it would die. So
after stalling they came up with a plan - put wifi on top of the frequency u-wave ovens use - lots
of interference and they are tuned for water absorption so the range should be limited - and specify
a very low amount of power - limit the spectrum.

BUT! - EEs are a stubborn bunch - they took what the FCC gave them and made it work anyway.

But, it sort of sucks. The kluges that resend missed packets and the like induce latency all over
the place.

Part of the problem is the SIP protocol overhead - could be IAX would make it work a bit better?,
but right now we live in a SIP world. I've not been able to find any numbers on IAX vs SIP over wifi
- I bet it still has problems.

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Re: recommendations for Wifi SIP phones?

EL
> So this is why there is a market for a substitute and what I've heard is that Siemens- Gigaset (
> DECT )  phones are a good substitute for wifi.

The side affect of not using your mobile phone + sip app is that the
supported codecs on DECT/Wifi phones are so limited and not expanded
in the future. On Siemens Gigaset DECT phones the max is G7221 (HD
16000Hz). Also, I experienced trouble calling with my baresip client to
Siemens Gigaset handsets using the G7221 codecs. I'm not sure which end
is causing the trouble (baresip or Siemens Gigaset DECT handset). The
weird thing is that I'm hearing the voice from the Siemens side really
good, but the Siemens side complains they are hearing my voice in slower
motion. This appeared to happen in two different cases...

Someone has an idea what could cause this issue or is having the same
experience?
 

Thanks for the interesting EE digression insight.

> This is bad. In WWII the Nazi's used wire recorders to insert latency and found that if the latency
> was bad enough - people would get mad at each other for interrupting.

Do you have a source for this statement? I would like to read upon it.

(I suppose the latency introduced with cell phones is why everyone
started hating each other.)

That made me laugh... :)

--
EL

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Re: recommendations for Wifi SIP phones?

Daniel Ivanov


On Sep 21, 2013 5:23 PM, "EL" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > So this is why there is a market for a substitute and what I've heard is that Siemens- Gigaset (
> > DECT )  phones are a good substitute for wifi.
>
> The side affect of not using your mobile phone + sip app is that the
> supported codecs on DECT/Wifi phones are so limited and not expanded
> in the future. On Siemens Gigaset DECT phones the max is G7221 (HD
> 16000Hz). Also, I experienced trouble calling with my baresip client to
> Siemens Gigaset handsets using the G7221 codecs. I'm not sure which end
> is causing the trouble (baresip or Siemens Gigaset DECT handset). The
> weird thing is that I'm hearing the voice from the Siemens side really
> good, but the Siemens side complains they are hearing my voice in slower
> motion. This appeared to happen in two different cases...
>
> Someone has an idea what could cause this issue or is having the same
> experience?
Most prolly ptime mismatch on the codec side. Transcode it or hardset it.
>
>
> Thanks for the interesting EE digression insight.
>
> > This is bad. In WWII the Nazi's used wire recorders to insert latency and found that if the latency
> > was bad enough - people would get mad at each other for interrupting.
>
> Do you have a source for this statement? I would like to read upon it.
>
> (I suppose the latency introduced with cell phones is why everyone
> started hating each other.)
>
> That made me laugh... :)
Wicked guys these nazis, right :)
>
> --
> EL
>
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Re: recommendations for Wifi SIP phones?

Karl Schmidt
In reply to this post by Karl Schmidt
A few more details - It turns out that enterprise wifi uses CTS RTS in order to handle a large
number of devices - if they block you for half a second during a phone call, you won't like it.

On the other hand - I'm seeing some stuff from CISCO about VOIP WIFI - (most likely based on a new
standard?).  The bottom line is that a softphone over  regular wifi is not likely bring joy.

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Re: recommendations for Wifi SIP phones?

Karl Schmidt
A few more notes:

It appears that Skype and Google voice work well enough over wifi - but not SIP. So I'm starting to
think that the SIP protocol stack is the problem?

There are other standards - Most are proprietary, but it looks like jingle is on a BSD licenses.

I can't seem to find anything that mentions the license of IAX2 ?? There are some softphones that
support IAX2.  Mod Opal lets freeswitch talk via IAX2 - I don't know if it is working? If anyone has
tested a IAX2/freeswitch/wifi combination - I would be quite interested in the results.

Squinting into the future - the question is if the new wifi standard  802.11ac or a move beyond SIP
will be the solution to VoIP/wifi

It does look like 802.11ac has addressed some latency issues with MU-MIMO, but I've been unable to
find any real-world numbers. This is a complex new standard that will take a while to get debugged
and bench marked.  Could be that any wifi that has more than one connection will glitch audio - and
MU-MIMO could fix that.

Right now it still looks like a SIP world that we live in..











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Re: recommendations for Wifi SIP phones?

Michael Jerris
Administrator
Audio issues on wifi have nothing to do with the signaling protocol, they have everything to do with the codecs and other media features.  My biggest issue with wifi based sip phones is the battery life sucks.  Don't bother w/ IAX2 its a solution looking for a problem.

Mike


On Oct 10, 2013, at 10:19 PM, Karl Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A few more notes:
>
> It appears that Skype and Google voice work well enough over wifi - but not SIP. So I'm starting to
> think that the SIP protocol stack is the problem?
>
> There are other standards - Most are proprietary, but it looks like jingle is on a BSD licenses.
>
> I can't seem to find anything that mentions the license of IAX2 ?? There are some softphones that
> support IAX2.  Mod Opal lets freeswitch talk via IAX2 - I don't know if it is working? If anyone has
> tested a IAX2/freeswitch/wifi combination - I would be quite interested in the results.
>
> Squinting into the future - the question is if the new wifi standard  802.11ac or a move beyond SIP
> will be the solution to VoIP/wifi
>
> It does look like 802.11ac has addressed some latency issues with MU-MIMO, but I've been unable to
> find any real-world numbers. This is a complex new standard that will take a while to get debugged
> and bench marked.  Could be that any wifi that has more than one connection will glitch audio - and
> MU-MIMO could fix that.
>
> Right now it still looks like a SIP world that we live in..
>


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Re: recommendations for Wifi SIP phones?

Karl Schmidt
On 10/11/2013 09:02 AM, Michael Jerris wrote:
> Audio issues on wifi have nothing to do with the signaling protocol, they have everything to do
> with the codecs and other media features.

Not sure what you mean - it appears to mostly have to do with the nature of wifi - today's wifi only
serves one client at a time - thus there are gaps that best case could be covered with large buffers
and delay.  I did more tests just today with a Debian desk top and linphone as the client - works
fine if the host is the only one connected. If you have a second host moving a data stream, it gets
bad pretty fast.  The closer the AP and host the better it works as there is more bandwidth - but I
could make things fail even at close range.

What I'm looking at is the ability for skype and Google voice to work where SIP does not.  I have a
lot more tests to run. I've bumped into this claim several times.

( I did find confounding problems if zrtp was turned on with a client without support - this is even
on 1000BaseT not wifi related )

I'm also reading that CISCO has APs that make SIP work better - might just be marketing hype - but
could be careful sharing of bandwidth and QOS.


> My biggest issue with wifi based sip phones is the
> battery life sucks.

Even when the phone is used as a phone it is a problem - wifi tends to burn even more power.  I've
wanted to make it work with something in the 7" format that would have more battery. Newer chipsets
can use a lot less power if the drivers are right.


Don't bother w/ IAX2 its a solution looking for a problem.

That is what I've heard - but I do see some products supporting it - makes me think there is a
reason. ( my searches did not find happy freeswitch users using IAX2 )


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Re: recommendations for Wifi SIP phones?

Kevin Wormington
Karl, I think what Michael means is that SIP is a signaling protocol and
would having nothing to do with audio issues.  If google voice or skype
work on a wifi link and SIP does not then it is most likely due to the
choice of audio codec.  Google voice is probably using something like
g.729 or speex/opus whereas if you haven't made changes to a default SIP
install you may be using G.711 or G.722, etc.

My experience has been that wifi on good APs with the appropriate codec
is just barely ok for business users.  I think most people that are
serious about it in a business environment are using DECT.

Kevin

On 10/11/2013 05:39 PM, Karl Schmidt wrote:

> On 10/11/2013 09:02 AM, Michael Jerris wrote:
>> Audio issues on wifi have nothing to do with the signaling protocol, they have everything to do
>> with the codecs and other media features.
>
> Not sure what you mean - it appears to mostly have to do with the nature of wifi - today's wifi only
> serves one client at a time - thus there are gaps that best case could be covered with large buffers
> and delay.  I did more tests just today with a Debian desk top and linphone as the client - works
> fine if the host is the only one connected. If you have a second host moving a data stream, it gets
> bad pretty fast.  The closer the AP and host the better it works as there is more bandwidth - but I
> could make things fail even at close range.
>
> What I'm looking at is the ability for skype and Google voice to work where SIP does not.  I have a
> lot more tests to run. I've bumped into this claim several times.
>
> ( I did find confounding problems if zrtp was turned on with a client without support - this is even
> on 1000BaseT not wifi related )
>
> I'm also reading that CISCO has APs that make SIP work better - might just be marketing hype - but
> could be careful sharing of bandwidth and QOS.
>
>
>> My biggest issue with wifi based sip phones is the
>> battery life sucks.
>
> Even when the phone is used as a phone it is a problem - wifi tends to burn even more power.  I've
> wanted to make it work with something in the 7" format that would have more battery. Newer chipsets
> can use a lot less power if the drivers are right.
>
>
> Don't bother w/ IAX2 its a solution looking for a problem.
>
> That is what I've heard - but I do see some products supporting it - makes me think there is a
> reason. ( my searches did not find happy freeswitch users using IAX2 )
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Karl Schmidt                                  EMail [hidden email]
> Transtronics, Inc.                              WEB http://secure.transtronics.com
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>
> In a business deal, both parties enter for their own gain.
> It is only when dealing with the government, because of the
> threat of physical force, that we enter in deals that are not in our interest.
> kps
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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Re: recommendations for Wifi SIP phones?

EL
In reply to this post by Daniel Ivanov
> > On Siemens Gigaset DECT phones the max is G7221 (HD
> > 16000Hz). Also, I experienced trouble calling with my baresip client to
> > Siemens Gigaset handsets using the G7221 codecs. I'm not sure which end
> > is causing the trouble (baresip or Siemens Gigaset DECT handset). The
> > weird thing is that I'm hearing the voice from the Siemens side really
> > good, but the Siemens side complains they are hearing my voice in slower
> > motion. This appeared to happen in two different cases...

First of all, I have to correct one typo: Siemens supports G722 not G7221.

> > Someone has an idea what could cause this issue or is having the same
> > experience?

> Most prolly ptime mismatch on the codec side. Transcode it or hardset it.

I have looked at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/freeswitch-users@.../msg21052.html

And:
http://wiki.freeswitch.org/wiki/Variable_sip_codec_negotiation

<action application="set" data="sip_codec_negotiation=scrooge"/>

Is that what you meant with setting the ptime or should I use another
setting?

Thanks for your input.
--
EL

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Re: recommendations for Wifi SIP phones?

Karl Schmidt
I have linphone working quite well with a WIFI connection - the detail is you have to limit other
computers accessing the same AP at the same time.

The interesting development is 802.11ac with MU-MIMO - I don't have hardware to test with, but
MU-MIMO apparently fixes the VoIP wifi problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-user_MIMO

Also - 802.11ac should do good beam-forming with devices that support it.

http://chimera.labs.oreilly.com/books/1234000001739/ch04.html

There is also work on UWB and wavelet radio that if allowed at enough power could do some amazing
things.

There is a link to a working server that would show the details - but the administration wants to
jerk the public around for political purposes and has it redirected to a nag page.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-02-48A1.pdf
... but you can see it here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20111016141207/http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-02-48A1.pdf

I first learned of wavelet radio in 1984 from a Russian engineer - our government did everything it
could to prevent it's use and development. (It is difficult to intercept or jam such signals ) - if
we lived in a sane world wifi would be based on this and be much more advanced than it is now.  The
current regulation limit the power and usefulness to limit competition to protect particular
companies. In spite of these roadblocks wifi and UWB has slowly developed..

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